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Bazu

As with many ALttP enemies at the moment, this name is unofficial, so I suggest moving it, along with a number of others, to their Japanese names. This enemy is known as Bazu, or "Buzz", which implies that its actually an insect and not even a reptile. There's a bunch of other misnamed enemies, such as Rabbit Fang (which is called Toppo), Reaper (Hyu), Cyclops Fish and a number of others that basically have fanon names right now. It'll take awhile asking for permission to move each one, but I figured I might as well just move all of the unnamed enemies (I've checked, the obscure ones that DO have official names are ones like Pengator, Freezor, Pikit, Zirro and Swamola) to their Japanese names. I'm a little nervous about just doing it all at once because I don't want to make a fuss, but I don't think it should cause too much controversy, and asking for permission for each one would take a bit too long. Fizzle 16:17, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

An alternative for the Dark World enemies would be to merge their pages with their Light World counterparts. That way we can avoid calling them by their Japanese names and still remain accurate. For the other ones I guess we wouldn't have a choice. Thoughts?

Also, could you make a list of all the enemy pages that need to be moved? Just to give everyone an idea...

By the way, although it may not look like it sometimes, we do appreciate you trying to improve this wiki's accuracy. You'll have to forgive our slowness in these matters. It's all a part of trying to get things done on a wiki :P — Hylian King ^[*] 20:41, 10 October 2011 (EDT)

I like HK's idea (about merging Dark World counterparts and such). And I also agree about possibly giving us a list of all the enemies that have the "wrong" names. You've posted so many that I've lost track, haha. XD Dany36 20:47, 10 October 2011 (EDT)

I don't like this idea, because I don't think they were meant to be "counterparts", more that they just use the same AI routines. This enemy is a perfect example, because its not a rat at all, and has no connection to it, other than it generally acts the same. There's an enemy called Pirogusu that has more viability as a counterpart to the Rat (the name seems to be a reference to the Japanese name for the Rat, and its a bit like an aquatic rat) even though it doesn't act exactly like one. Likewise, the Taurus enemies are much more like Pig Warriors, also known as Moblins. Moblins use the same movement routines as the weak Soldiers in Hyrule Castle, does that mean they are counterparts? What ARE counterparts exactly? Moblins, Hinoxes, Ropas, Wizzrobes, they're all enemies that have appeared outside of the Dark World in many games, usually more often than not. Just because an enemy is obscure and uses the same behavior patterns as another doesn't necessarily mean they're related. On the other hand, something like a Stalrope is DEFINITELY related to a Rope, simply by name alone. The concept of a "counterpart" in the Dark World is very vague and I don't think it necessarily applies to individual creatures. Most monsters appear in both worlds at some point. There are a very small number that only appear in one or the other, so surely the idea of a counterpart is moot if 99% of creatures don't have them? Fizzle 21:05, 10 October 2011 (EDT)

I thought it was pretty simple. If they behave in a similar manner and spawn in the exact same spots as an enemy does in the Light World, that's plenty to go on, no? I could think of four enemies this concept would apply to off the top of my head: Cyclops Fish, Eye Keese, Lizard (arguably), and Stalrope (which is already on the Rope page under "Skull Rope"). That may be only a fraction of the enemies that need to be moved, but that doesn't make the concept any less valid. I still think we should do it if we can. — Hylian King ^[*] 07:40, 11 October 2011 (EDT)

Where does it stop though? I know merging can be tempting, but it seems needless, as its based on a vague, arbitrary concept of a "counterpart", which may be moot anyway. What's wrong with having seperate pages? Why does it only apply to A Link to the Past? Dinolfos behave exactly the same as Lizalfos in OoT, but they have a seperate page (as they should). Ghinis behave almost exactly like Poes in most games. Even Fokka behaves a LOT like an Iron Knuckle. Also, just for clarity, they do not spawn in the same spots, they are in a different location. They appear only in the top floor of Thieves' Town dungeon, while Rats primarily live in sewers. They also do a lot more damage than a Rat, and can take more hits to defeat, and don't drop many Rupees like Rats do. Also, as for Eye Keese (which is a fan name again, it should be Chasupa) seem to be related to Patra, and also they behave very different in their appearance in FSA (not sure if thats mentioned on the page), AND they appear in both the Light World and the Dark World, so, as I say, the idea of them being "dark counterparts" like in Twilight Princess is a false one. I suspect if Bazu ever appeared again, it would also not act exactly like a Rat. Their similar behavior is more down to them saving space by using the same AI behaviors. Guays and Keese act the same in OoT, so this isn't unusual. May I suggest you let me soup up and improve these enemy pages before we consider merging anything? There's a lot of info thats wrong or lacking.

May I also add, that lets assume I am a player of ALttP, and I run into these obscure enemies in the Thieve's Town dungeon, and go here to find out what they are. Lets say I'm looking for the Stalrope, and I go here Gallery:Enemies in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past and find... nothing. Its not there at all. While I could find that one by looking at the Rope page due to their similar appearance, this one, and many of the others would be more confusing. I would say that Stalrope should be merged as it is since Ropes aren't that common or varied, and POSSIBLY Ku (Cyclops Fish) COULD be merged (as they are called Zoras in the guide, but I think this was a mistake). As for the rest though, I think it would be counterproductive, as we would simply be giving information about an enemy to people who already know about them, assuming a connection that is arbitrary, and nobody else would know their names or be able to find them without already knowing, which removes the very point of an encylopedia. Mention of the similarity between Rats and Pirogusu (which is named Aqua Beetle for some bizarre reason at the moment, thats incorrect too) and Buzz/Bazu on the Rat page seems enough to me. Fizzle 09:58, 11 October 2011 (EDT)

My main problem with this is that we're using Japanese names on an English wiki. That was why I was trying to suggest alternatives such as the merging before going through with it. But you've made it pretty clear that if we want to be 100% accurate there aren't any alternatives.

Let's make a list, shall we? Feel free to add any that I've forgotten:

• Merge Cyclops Fish with River Zora or move to Ku (to be determined).
• Split Hoba or Hover from Water Tektite.
• Split Hokkubokku from Geldarm.
• Split Zazakku from Daira.
• Move Lizard to Bazu or Buzz.
• Move Reaper to Hyu.
• Move Aqua Beetle to Pirogusu.
• Move Rhinobird to Kyune.
• Move Rabbit Fang to Toppo.

Before we go through with this, does anyone have anything to add to this conversation? This entire discussion has basically only had two voices, and that is by no means a consensus. — Hylian King ^[*] 19:35, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

First, let me just point out that most Zelda enemies already use their Japanese names anyway. Most of the iconic names are direct translations of the Katakana, and all the names are in Katakana, which is designed to represent English words in Japanese. So stuff like Keese, Gibdos, Stalfos, Zora... they're all Japanese names anyway. So I don't think using the Japanese names is a big deal when its the only name that exists. All it means is that we don't have an official romanisation of the names so we sort of have to assume. Your list covers most of the important ones, here's some others, and some Zelda II ones while I'm at it.

*Move Eye Keese to Chasupa.

*Move Kodongo to Kodondo. Yeah, one letter wrong, I was surprised too.

• Move Cloud to Gibo or Geebo.
• Move Sentry Eye to Laser Eye, as thats what the Guide calls them. Japanese name is completely different and weird.
• Split Geeru from Lizalfos (lets pretend someone didn't foolishly do that by accident already)
• Move Tinsuit to Wosu (or Worf or Worth, as thats how its pronounced) unless someone can point me to where they were called Tinsuits.
• Technically Taurus should be moved to Tarosu, or Taros, but maybe someone better versed in Japanese can tell me if its meant to be Taurus or not. Obviously the name references Taurus... but I am not sure the name is Taurus. Kind of like how Yeto isn't called Yeti.

Also, its a minor thing, but...

• Puff Bomber should just be Bomber or Zirro, I don't remember them having Puff infront of their name but I'm checking up on that one.

May I also suggest this for a bit of fun... put the Japanese names like ウォース into Google Translate, and click on the Listen button (in the box with the Japanese text) to hear a really surprisingly accurate approximation of what the names are meant to sound like. For example, Sutarafosu スタルフォス despite looking nothing like Stalfos when written down, sounds exactly like Stalfos. Its a pretty good way of assuming what the enemy names are meant to be, and its why I went with Gaeru rather than Geeru (though after listening again I'm less sure, probably best to be safe and go with Geeru). But I'm not sure what the best way of doing things is. It seems a pretty nice way of doing things for some names, though. Stuff like Hokkubokku comes out as Hok Bok, sounds about right. Fizzle 20:52, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

Ah, I just noticed that Rhinobird is called キューネ, which is also in Link's Awakening known as a Raven (there's no page for that I don't think?). So we could put it under that... except that the one in ALttP clearly isn't a Raven. This is an issue a bit like the Water Tektite. Like I said elsewhere, the Link's Awakening guide has a lot to answer for with its names. I mean, seriously... Spiny Beetle? Its not even spiny. Fizzle 21:25, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

I have several points on this issue I'd like to bring up.

I'm steadfastly against using two of the same letters ("double-lettering") for naming pages for monsters with extended vowels. I really hate having to butcher the names with the likes of "Geeru", when it could simply be "Gēru".

スタルフォス is "Sutarufosu", not "Sutarafosu", which may explain why you would think it's pronounced differently. Typically in Japanese, the "u"s are silent in "su" and occasionally "ku", the latter of which usually depends on the level of formality in the situation, from what I've observed. As a side note, Fizzle, I've noticed you seem to keep getting established romanization wrong, such as with "Tarosu" when the page itself says "Torosu" and "Woso" with "Wosu". Unless you've got a source supporting it, I'd be careful when trying to move things around.

I'm curious as to where we're getting "Kodondo"; if there's an official source you could point me to with it to confirm it (and a source for the Japanese name for Sentry Eye), I'd love to see it.

I really don't mind using Japanese names where there's no canon English, however, in this case, unless it's painfully obvious that it's an English loanword, I believe we should keep the romanizations as accurate as possible and not try to localize it ourselves (like "Gaeru") and try to use macrons instead of double-lettering (like "Geeru"). I'm pretty sure it's possible (see, for example, Dampé) and it wouldn't be that hard creating redirects to pages with macron-related titles using basic level romaji (Pirogusu to Pirogūsu).

Through this, I would support:

• Merging Cyclops Fish with River Zora or moving it to Ku.
• Moving Lizard to Bazu or Buzz.
• Moving Reaper to Hyū.
• Moving Aqua Beetle to Pirogūsu.
• Moving Rhinobird to Kyūne.
• Moving Rabbit Fang to Toppo.

*Moving Eye Keese to Chasupa.

*Moving Kodongo to Kodondo, with a source.

• Moving Cloud to Gībo.
• Moving Sentry Eye to Laser Eye.
• Moving Tinsuit to Wosu.
• Splitting Hōbā or Hover from Water Tektite.
• Splitting Hokkubokku from Geldarm.
• Splitting Zāzakku from Daira.
• Splitting Gēru from Lizalfos.

From my observations, Template:Japanese does seem to be one of the ways to spell Taurus. And on the Rhinobird issue, I'd like to keep those separate because they're clearly different enemies despite having the same Japanese name. - Tony^{T S C} 22:51, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

Firstly, I just want to say when I typed Sutarafosu, that was a typo, I meant to type Sutaru. My point was that スタルフォス sounds precisely like Stalfos when it is pronounced in Japanese, and Google Translate's Listen feature makes this obvious, so its a pretty good way of assuming what letters should be silent, like in the case of Hokkubokku (which comes out as Hok Bok). I figured it would be a good, consistent way of essentially coming up with "English" names. Note that Deadrock and Slarok have essentially had this done already, so if you wanted to use pages named like Zāzakku instead of, say, Zazak, we would have to go change their pages to Deddurokku and Surarokku for consistency. There are only a few enemies that I would recommend changing the lettering though, really. As for the accent issue, I personally don't mind it but I can see other people finding it bothersome or confusing, as this wiki does have an American English focus.

Okay, evidence time. Basically my source is the Japanese ALttP Guide. It has a whole character section on enemies. Here are the pages you specifically asked for... http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2197/130pg.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1921/127ifc.jpg

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5521/134zl.jpg

As you can see, its コドンド, which is Kodondo, and タロス, Tarosu. The eye is called カランメイダ, Karanmeida, but I can promise it is listed in the English guide as Laser Eye. Anyway, if you want more of these, they can all be found here, it covers pretty much every major enemy and a few non-enemy characters and its where all these names came from originally. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=guides

Oh, and Woso was just me typoing again, my bad. As for Kyune being different to Raven... I think its an instance of an enemy changing appearance but keeping the same name in Japanese, yet it was given a name to suit its second appearance, like Water Tektite, but not its first appearance. Its a problem with purely descriptive names. We could probably split them since in English they aren't really considered the same enemy and it leads to confusion. Fizzle 07:50, 13 October 2011 (EDT)

For the record, this conservation has been taken over to Hyrule Castle. — Hylian King ^[*] 08:26, 17 October 2011 (EDT)

Clearing Up

All of these redlinks are clogging up the wanted pages list. I hope you wouldn't mind if I removed the links on them. Giant X 23:08, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

Ah, links on Talk pages do this as well? Sorry about that. You can remove them for now while we discuss this if its causing an issue, we apologise. Hopefully it won't be an issue for longer if we move these pages, however. Fizzle 07:50, 13 October 2011 (EDT)

Okay, I just finished doing just that. Hope that helps with the wanted pages. Heroofstuff 00:45, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

Grasshoppers?

They look far more like roaches to me, with the way they move and all. Unlike grasshoppers, these enemies never hop. - Dere 12:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

If we want to stay canon, we have to take what Nintendo says as fact. If Nintendo says they're grasshoppers (and apparently they do), then they're grasshoppers, as far as the Zelda universe is concerned. Real world biology doesn't really apply. — Hylian King ^[*] 20:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Technically the word used can also apply to all kadydids (which is the type of insect that grasshoppers belong to). They do look very similar, and I don't know if they all jump. Take a look at this guy, for instance... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Katydid_india.jpg Pretty similar looking, you can see the influence. They're probably based on roaches too, or just general bugs, but the official guide uses the word for grasshopper in a sort of cute reference to it. It's not saying it IS one, just that it's like one. Previously the page described them as lizards, so... at least we know it's a bug now. User:Fizzle/sig 01:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)