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Relationships

Not that it really matters, but I just noticed Link doesn't have a relationships section. Not just romantic or potentially so, but like family and people who raised him. Is there a reason for this? Zelda's page has one, so I was just wondering. I mean, right now if I want to find out that info I have to do a lot of searching and reading. But it's not a big issue either way.Xelestial (talk) 17:30, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

The relationship section would contain so many sub-sections it would be overkill. – Jazzi talk 18:18, December 13, 2012 (UTC)
OK, makes sense. Xelestial (talk) 18:19, December 13, 2012 (UTC)
I'm aware this ain't exactly a lively talk anymore, but I thought I should just use this instead of making a similar talk page. I'm not exactly sure about this, but there's probably other pages in other rather popular wikis that have relationship sections which have quite a bit of sub-sections in it. Also to be noted is that we could just limit them to very major characters if things were to go out of hand.--Zakitaro (talk) 10:18, May 29, 2015 (UTC)

Link's Age

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Link's adult age in Ocarina of Time 19 not 17? According to Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Link is 12, it says so in his trophy description:

"Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, with big eyes and an expressive face. He lived peacefully on Outset Island until a bird captured his little sister, and he came to her rescue. In The Wind Waker, he had to crawl, press up to walls, and the like. His green clothes were worn on his 12th birthday and are the lucky outfit of the hero of legend."

His Grandma says "Today is a day to celebrate! It is the day that you become the same age as the young hero spoken of in all the legends."

Then young Link fell asleep for 7 years so surely adult Link should be 19 not 17. Then again, I might just be over thinking this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azure Leopard (talkcontribs)

What's going on?

Admins, take heed. Someone seem to have hijacked your site... starting with this page! --Starlight Keyblade (talk) 20:12, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Image

This has always been the subject of infobox image changing... I forget, did we ever set some real ground rules about exactly what picture to use, and how to do so without bias? Well, anyway, maybe as a solution this thing from that dreaded thing about the thing could be used. It may become quickly outdated and everything, but it's better than nothing. Besides which, we have some MSPaint geniuses about who might be able to do a terrib--err, terrific job of it. Anyway, speak. --AuronKaizer! 23:27, November 29, 2013 (UTC)

Propose subpages for distinctive Links

Particularly in the case of a Link who we know has existed as the same person in multiple games, like with Ocarina-Majora for example. A central difficulty is what to name them. Naming them after shorthand of the games they appear in, in the chronological order in-universe the games happen in, would work for me.

The ones who appear in multiple games are most important as this lessens the amount of Links to keep track of, and we can tally the solo-game ones at the end. Tracking the timelines and stuff on this basis would give an impression of how many have lived. --talk2ty 18:01, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Making distinction between the Links are also difficult. Evidence elans both ways for the Oracle Link being the same as ALTTP/LA. Some don't think ALTTP is the LA Link at all. Nothing confirms the Four Swords Adventures Link actually is the Four Swords Link. There's also Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur Links who take the appearance from one game but uses traits from other games. Overall it's an unconfirmed, opinionated mess that provides nothing that can't be detailed on this page. The only Link's I think we could make a page for are the ones who aren't playable in games like the original Hero of Time or Hylia's Hero from Skyward Sword (who even had a short manga if I remember correctly). Oni Dark Link 18:25, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

There will definitely be a lot of tough areas where we will be unsure about who is who. I propose we come up with a naming system where by default we assume a separate Link for every single game. Obviously there is a lot of evidence to suggest the Link of 2 or more games is the same one in which case we have a second step where we come up with a system for a consolidated name. I would primarily defer to unique titles he has been given within the games themselves as the default, and then go by some kind of standardized system otherwise.

Time Hero for Ocarina/Majora, Twilight Hero for TwiPrincess, Wind Hero for Windwaker, would be some good starting points. It gets confusing after that when games lack as distinctive a theme, but it's better than just a single-page jumble. talk2ty 19:13, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

There is really nothing to be gained by making multiple Link pages and a whole lot of trouble trying to correct and format them to gain said nothing. Aside from the historic Link's mentioned above, the only other Link's I could see getting pages would be the outside Zelda game Links, namely the smash Bros. Sould Calibur and Hyrule Warrior games since they have such a vastly different gameplay style and would be a good place to list equipment and combos that wouldn't naturally fit on this page. Oni Dark Link 19:18, November 9, 2014 (UTC)
I agree, what Oni Dark Link said.  ShiramLudgerusээ Fi (Hyrule Warriors) 01:55, November 10, 2014 (UTC)
Link and Pigs
Joseph Yanchar – 'I scream, you scream, we all scream 'cause we're terrified of what's around the corner. We stay in place 'cause we don't want to lose our lives. So let's think of something better.'
TALK – {{{time}}}
I think the fact that so many different Links appear in the series is enough to support making a page for each one. One way to circumvent naming issues and page material could be to actually create a page for the Link of each game, regardless of whether or not that same Link is in another game (Link's appearance and actions in that game would have a separate page). This could be done for such characters as Ganon and Zelda too, I suppose.

Gender

Out of curiosity, would we be able to make an article or at least a forum thread for exploring within each game what references exist to the gender of link? I mean, I know we all assume he's a male and stuff, but I mean more in the terms of direct evidence. Like who (and where, and when) might refer to Link as 'he' or 'him' or any other pronouns or other terms which declare a specific gender for the hero.

Like for example, are there games where we can rule out by such references (1 or more) the possibility of Link being a strong masculine-seeming girl, and other games where we can not rule out the possiblity? It's not like Link has ever had stereotypical indicators like a moustache or beard, so I thought that could be an interesting project.

Since there clearly seems to be multiple Links in the franchise (see above section) a conclusion (or lackthereof) drawn in one game would not necessarily mean anything for those in others. I haven't memorized the particulars of NPC dialogue so I would have to keep an eye out for this type of stuff during a replay (does anyone have transcripts we can check perhaps?).

I expect one strong candidate for affirmed-masculinity would be Windwaker due to having a sibling, perhaps at some point Link was referred to as a 'brother' in it? talk2ty 19:13, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Again, dead conversation, but I hate seeing people left unanswered. Link's gender is pretty unambigious by the title Hero alone. He is not ever referred to as anything but a Hero, which is masculine.
The Hero of Time in particular is referred to as 'brother' by the Gorons, is thrown in jail by the Gerudo for being a dude, called 'the boy without a fairy', 'such a lazy boy', so on and so forth.
The Hero of Twilight, when being admonished by Ilia, is referred to as 'him' when Ilia is told to calm down. When Midna rescues him and first brings him to Zelda, they both refer to him as 'he' and 'him'. On a purely biological level, Link is shirtless during sumo-wrestling in Twilight Princess and it is clear from his lack of breasts his sex is male, and he does not seem to be gender dysphoric.
I am positive the Hero of Winds is called 'brother' by Aryll at some point.
It is harder to clarify in older games with less dialogue, but it is pretty clear throughout that Link is male. -Stars talk Starssprite.gif 22:31, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

I think 'hero' could possibly be neutral, 'heroine' isn't necessarily needed when describing a female. Avengers: World's Mightiest Heroes includes women for example.

Solid evidence for Ocarina, can't believe I forgot those phrases, but they came back as soon as you said them. In the case of Gorons, I'm tempted to think they might misjudge gender (like those egg-shaped guys on Doctor Who) but I think the Kokiri (who I figure coined 'boy without fairy) would be able to tell.

Ilia/Midna/Zelda combined is also pretty damning. I don't necessarily agree on the Sumo part (could just be super flatchested and lowBF) but it isn't needed.

Will defer to Aryll, that sounds like something that would have happened. Finding quote bites in the older games would be harder since one doesn't tend to remember the NPCs as clearly, least I don't. talk2ty 21:25, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

CD-i appearances

Link and Pigs
Joseph Yanchar – 'Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are nearly depleted.'
TALK – {{{time}}}
I hate to say it, but shouldn't Link's appearances in the CD-i games be added to the Non-Canonical appearances section?
Aquamentus (Oracle of Seasons)
Oni Dark Link – "Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end - George R.R Martin"
TALK – {{{time}}}~ evaluations reviews walkthrough
Wow. Yeah definitely. I'm legitimately surprised no one has noticed this after all these years. We have CD-I sections for Ganon, and not Link. It's just downright strange. His appearance in the books should probably be covered too. Though looking at it, that non canon section is pretty big. I think maybe we should split it up into a few more sections and regulate some of the appearances to the cameo page.
Link and Pigs
Joseph Yanchar – As mortals, people like Epicurus are rather unqualified to make the statements about God that they do, aren't they....
TALK – {{{time}}}
Great. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about the CD-i games, so I'm unqualified in creating such a section.

Link's incarnations

Please excuse me for asking this, but where does it state (aside from Wind Waker) that each Link is a reincarnation of each other? If your talking about how reincarnation is a thing in the franchise, then I agree, but that doesn't exactly mean every Link is a reincarnation of each other. As for descendants, I meant as a direct kind of relationship such as how the Hero of Time seems to be a direct ancestor to Twilight Princess Link, you know? Ether way, it's still a theory so I'm not sure how to go any further than that.--Zakitaro (talk) 22:29, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure TWW is the only game that mentions the possibility of Link being reincarnated, though the King of Red Lions insists that game's Link "has no connection to the ancient one." Unless there's a developer quote about this topic, I'm pretty sure the idea that the same Link is continuously reincarnated in every game is just a widely-accepted theory. Jedimasterlink (talk) 08:05, April 13, 2015 (UTC)
Well to be precise, the King of Red Lions said that Wind Waker Link seems to have no connection to the Hero of Time himself. But since the King of Red Lions didn't seem to exactly be "bright" (seriously, he leaves Tetra in some unknown dungeon and then wishes on the Triforce for his own Kingdom to be swept away instead of wishing for something like Ganon's defeat), he could have been wrong. I did kinda write why the Reincarnation theory is wrong, but the relative theory is pretty valid isn't it? Anyways, since what I wrote is currently a valid theory (especially the relatives one) may I bring it back to Link's page?--Zakitaro (talk) 09:47, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

It's not just the King of Red Lions. Ganondorf also refers to Link as the Hero of Time Reborn. Likewise Zelda is Hylia reborn meaning reincarnation, at least for the divine is a factor of the universe. Likewise there are a lot of comments about Hylia's Chosen Hero both in the time past and in the present day that seems to infer they are one and the same despite being two people born at two different times. Faron also says Link's power is that of the hero that came before him when he is get's the Hero's Clothes and tha they are both chosen by the gods. I believe reincarnation is the clear intent of the developers and that the Spirit of the Hero that Demise curses is the spirit of Link hat is continually reborn. True one might say it's not really reincarnation and more a power or force but in reality the description of reincarnation doesn't follow the primary beliefs of Hindus of Buddhists of our world whose goal is actually to escape the cycle. The important thing is that some aspect of Link is continually manifests itself in people with similar physical characteristics whenever the world is in danger. I think that's something pretty clear and referenced to several times in the series and therefore is more than just a theory. Oni Dark Link 11:00, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

The King of Red Lions didn't really say Link from Wind Waker was the Hero of Time reborn. On the other hand, I think Ganon merely said that because he lost the battle against him. Are you also forgetting how the Hero of Time went to the Child Timeline and became the Hero's Shade? That kinda hints Wind Waker Link isn't a reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Besides, Link from Twilight Princess can't be the reincarnation of the Hero of Time since he not only is the direct descendant of the Hero of Time, but also met his ghost. I think by the Spirit of the Hero, Demise was actually referring to a form of will rather than Link's actual soul. As for Hylia, it seemed she decided to be reincarnated so she can stop Demise, she probably didn't do it because that's how nature works. So I'm not sure reincarnation is solid, you know? In fact, when Demise said "Those who share the blood of the goddess" he may have been referring to Link and Zelda's descendants who might be the other Links. In the Japanese text, Demise stated that his hatred will go under an "evolution", which may mean the curse could involve other villains apart from Ganon (such as Majora or Nightmare) which would further prove my theory since Zelda didn't really do much (if at all) to stop these foes. Anyways, this is still a theory so I'm not sure why you erased it. It is a valid theory isn't it?--Zakitaro (talk) 11:26, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

I believe I explained myself pretty accurately in my previous post. I don't see how I can make in any clearer but I'll give it a go. Demise explicitly refers to he Spirit of The Hero. It is something he curses, something that will continue to exist after Link dies and something on which the curse will continually act. This is a fact. It's something concrete in game. Now the exact nature of this Spirit of the Hero isn't detailed in full but we can gather it is what makes Link worth cursing. His essence as a warrior and protector. Something that will make he person stand in the way of those like Demise. What is clear is that there is something that preserves after death and gives power Link the power to be Link. It is referred to by Demise, Ganondorf, the King of Red Lions and Faron to name those I can think of off the top of my head. I don't think this warrants a a theory section because I believe it is a concrete part of the series and has been at least since The Wind Waker if not earlier and has definitely become something clear and definite since Skyward Sword. In fact I'd argue we make a page for the Spirit of The Hero where it's exact nature, exceptions and manifestations can be analyzed. Referring to it as Reincarnation is probably a misnomer as Link is not moving up a series of castes to reach Nirvana (like Hindu reincarnation) nor is he trying to become one with Nonexistence (like the Buddhist concept of rebirth), unless you're trying to say Link is on a spiritual journey to leave Hyrule to move to a higher plain of existence there is no theory to speak of. Oni Dark Link 15:19, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure where you get these ideas from, but I suppose I should give it a shot and try to write something against it. First of all, the Japanese text stated that Demise said "You people who possess the spirit of the Hero and blood of the goddess" which presumably refers to people like Link. Even the English text stated "Those like you" which further hints my theory. It actually seems like he cursed Link's descendants (Kind of like how Ganon cursed Link and Zelda as well as their descendants in the Ocarina of Time, in his words). Also, again Link from Wind Waker probably can't be spiritually connected with the Hero of Time since the Hero of Time not only went to the Child Timeline, but became the Hero's Shade. This also extends to Twilight Princess Link since (as I previously wrote above) he is the descendant of the Hero of Time as well as met his ghost. What your stating doesn't really have any solid proof (seriously, when were Buddhists or Hindu a thing in Legend of Zelda?), in fact, it kinda sounds like a theory. As for what Faron said, it still sounds like a will thing (or the Triforce of Courage) in my opinion. I'm not entirely sure what dialogue the King of Red Lions said which further convinces you about this whole "reincarnation theory", but it's probably not too convincing of words. Please forgive me if I have offended you an anyway.--Zakitaro (talk) 04:13, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

We're going around in circles here. I bring up Buddhism and Hinduism to specifically say Link is not in a cycle of reincarnation as it is traditionally understood, but that something is being passed on each time. This something whether you call it a spirit, a force or a will is something that is a clear and intentional part of the canon that is not a theory. Demise even gives us a clear name for it. It is something that definitely exists even if its nature, limitations and exceptions are unknown to us. Oni Dark Link 10:01, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what to say here. I already gave out my arguments for this "spirit thing" you seem so convinced about. What Demise said was (in the Japanese version) that Link is a powerful human (Hylian) whom he praises for defeating him and then gleefully tells him that his hatred and the Demon Tribe's curse will keep reincarnating to curse Link's people who possesses the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the Hero. He doesn't specify about this "spirit of the Hero" thing. I already stated my reasons for why reincarnation probably isn't the thing for each of Link's incarnations as well as stated the reasons for why the relative theory (close relatives) is a possible theory.--Zakitaro (talk) 10:31, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
So I'm completely lost now. From what I can tell, Oni seems to have shifted his stance from "Link is reincarnated" to "Link isn't reincarnated, but each Link shares the same spirit/force/thing whose nature is basically unknown to us," while Zakitaro denies both Link's reincarnation and the "spirit of the Hero" argument while using a quote that specifically mentions this spirit in his claims against it. I just don't know what I can add to clear this up for you guys. Some of the time you seem to have the same basic position, and other times...not. Jedimasterlink (talk) 17:14, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
If we were to simplify things greatly then I would still say yes, it is canon that Link is reincarnated. It's just on further exploration of this fact do I feel the need to call it something different since it isn't strictly reincarnation and never referred to as such. Oni Dark Link 17:39, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
I would say that each incarnation of Link is related to one another (in theory), but I still wrote the reincarnation theory because it's a rather known theory. I did on the other hand though, also wrote how that would conflict with the other elements of the game (such as the timeline and the Hero's Shade) as well as wrote why I think it's possible that each incarnation of Link are related to one another in a family sort of way. As for the "Spirit of the Hero" thing, I'm trying to say that it's probably a will sort of thing rather than spirit itself that Demise said as he supposedly cursed Link and Zelda's descendants.--Zakitaro (talk) 05:59, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

For the purpose of what I'm trying to argue it doesn't mater what the Spirit of the Hero is, only that it makes Link, Link can is cursed so he will have to fight Demise's incarnation. But why do you assume it's a will sort of thing rather than a spirit when it is literally called the Spirit of the Hero. They just as easily could have called it the Will of the Hero if they wanted. It seems as if your baselessly twisting a quote to support our idea as a theory even though it makes no difference. Oni Dark Link 09:07, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I already wrote that this is a theory with other events throughout the games that back this up. I also wrote down a number of reason why the reincarnation theory would be wrong, and yet why do you keep insisting it's a solid fact in Legend of Zelda when there isn't much evidence to back it up? --Zakitaro (talk) 09:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I do still have issues with adding this as a theory. At least with the way the current argument stands. All Zakitaro has done is discredit the very explicit words of Demise which he then uses for the theory itself. To reduce things to it's most simplistic forms, I see of no reason why we should assume any of the characters who mention reincarnation are wrong or mean something else. By the same logic I could discredt Link being male by claiming everyone who calls him a young man or boy is referring to profession and no his gender. I'm fine letting the theory stay if it's the majority consensus, but not if the current logic is being used. Either way I also think the Spirit of the Hero should get it's own page since even if we outright refute reincarnation, it's still something important as the criteria for Demise's curse. Oni Dark Link 09:33, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

How many times do I have to note that the Hero of Time can't be the past life of Link from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess due to him going to the Child Timeline and becoming the Hero's Shade as well as the fact that he is the ancestor of Link from Twilight Princess whom he meets in person? You wrote down that all I did is discredit Demise's words, yet you don't seem to have read my entire sentences. I'm not sure what this "Spirit of the Hero" thing is exactly, but I do know that it probably is not Link's literal soul. I keep writing down that this is a theory, not confirmed information which is why I wrote down my theory for the "Spirit of the Hero" stuff and Link's incarnations which I used other information to back up with. I'm sorry if this has offended you in any way.--Zakitaro (talk) 09:59, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
Also again, reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned by anyone other than Ganondorf in TWW. All the other references you mentioned are to some sort of heroic lineage, which is equally plausible as both direct descension and reincarnation (except King of Red Lions, who advocates against one or both of these, not for them). The "spirit of the Hero", to my mind, is equally plausible as either Link's literal soul or the core traits of his character, and its mentioning only supports that a relation of some sort exists between each Link, whether physical, metaphysical, or otherwise. The next Zelda game will totally be called A Link Between Links. Jedimasterlink (talk) 10:13, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
I still don't think the "Spirit of the hero" is about Link's literal soul since the Hero of Time appeared as a ghost to his descendant who is the Link from Twilight Princess so there's that.--Zakitaro (talk) 10:38, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Why would conversing one's past incarnation be impossible? Have you ever seen anything from the Avatar franchise? They do it all the time there. In at least one Shin Megami Tensei game you need to fight an (evil) past version of yourself. And of course time travel would mess a lot of things up but can you say for certain that it would not replicate the reincarnation cycle? We have to accept there are things we simply don't know about the nature of the series, but not knowing something does not make what we do know irrelevant. If you want to strictly define reincarnation as something else that is a theory then that's fine, but I don't think making a reincarnation theory should override the fact that we do know there is something (referred to as a Spirit) that is shared by all if not most Links that gives them strength and helps to shape who they are. Oni Dark Link 10:43, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

If we're going to being Avatar into this, then technically, each Avatar has their own distinct soul -- their spirits are bound together, in a fashion, by their connection to Raava. In order for this comparison to work, the "spirit of the Hero" would have to be a similar sort of binding agent, a separate entity from the other Links which grants several distinct individuals across time shared abilities and characteristics. I suppose that's plausible for the Zelda series, but it's also really grasping at straws until A Link Between Links confirms it. (And assuming the SMT game you refer to is IV, that's enabled by time-travel/mulitiverse shenanigans coming into play.) Jedimasterlink (talk) 11:00, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Actually I was talking about Digital Devil Saga. Which is a weird case as it involves artificially making a reincarnated being using AIs which can attain physical form. The game makes it clear it uses the same "data" as the original being which is helpful since the physical world can be quantified with data. It's also considered true reincarnation in the literal Hindu sense since Nirvana is a confirmed state of existence. Though I am playing Shin Megami Tensei IV now so no spoilers please, I'm looking forward to getting into the game proper. Also while I'm here I feel like pointing out the Hero's Shade as a problem in it's entirety is a moot point as it in itself is a theory confirmed by a source outside of the game. Oni Dark Link 11:05, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about what you said since it's something else that's unrelated to this, but I if it's a literal soul, then I'd say it's not likely (along with the fact that the Adult Timeline is a parallel world of the Child Timeline minus Link from Ocarina of Time himself rather than a different time itself). Exactly what do you mean the Hero's Shade theory was confirmed by an outside source? It was confirmed by Nintendo itself (along with it being hinted rather heavily in the game through dialogue). And you stated that we "We have to accept there are things we simply don't know about the nature of the series" and yet you write your theories about the "Spirit of the Hero" like it's a fact. Exactly at what point does Demise state that the "Spirit of the Hero" gives the Link's great strength or helps shape their character? Please forgive me if what I'm writing seems harsh. --Zakitaro (talk) 11:09, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
Well, luckily, the SMT4 spoiler I accidentally gave isn't entirely accurate since I was trying to match what you said to one of the ones I've played (if I could just find a DDS copy at a decent price...). At any rate, while I'm enjoying this discussion, I feel like we're going to keep talking in circles for a long time if we try to keep this up, so I'm going to back out of it. Jedimasterlink (talk) 11:15, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Faron was the one who confirmed it gave him strength.

"It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening. Look at your awakened form...The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods...His power is yours. His is the true power that slept within you."
— Faron

As for shaping them as a person, aside from the obvious similarities between Links, Ganondorf in The Wind Waker refers to Link directly as being like the Hero of Time right before calling him the Hero of Time reborn. For what it's worth the narrative text itself also refers to the Master Sword as the sword of the One True Hero. Also it's cool for you to bow out Jedi but I'd appreciate it if you kept an eye on things and as a third party, come to some kind of conclusion if you've been swayed on way or another. (also copies of Digital Devil Saga tend to go for less than €20. I've been considering geyting a copy since I've only placed the second installment of the two part game). Oni Dark Link 11:24, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I assume the power Faron spoke of was about the Triforce of Courage (which I already noted above) rather than spirit itself. Pretty sure Ganon was just amazed that he lost to someone that looks similar to another person who also defeated him. Would also like to note that since this theory thing is seemingly accepted, there doesn't seem be much point continuing this talk. Why don't we also end this talk for now?--Zakitaro (talk) 11:30, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I confess Faron could be talking about the Triforce of Courage and that he could not, which is theory territory. However, Ganondorf says he was specifically waiting for Link to appear which means he wasn't surprised to encounter him. And I just keep coming back to Demise's words which literally says spirit. Even checking a translation of the Japanese script he still says soul (which is even more explicit than spirit). For one to interpret this for anything other than what is said involved ignoring the words, especially since, in either version, if they wanted it to refer to as a will then they could have used the word Will or Heart and the sentence would make the exact same amount of sense. It's no wonder we argue about the nature of the soul, it's something humans have debated about for thousands of years. But it's exact workings cannot disconfirm it's existence merely because it doesn't behave the way you personally would expect it to. Therefore the Hero's Shade or the Split Timeline cannot be used as evidence to the contrary. If you can in some way definitely prove that Demise means something other than exactly what he says then I will gladly back down and end this conversation (though I will still campaign for a Spirit of the Hero page where it's nature, or even existence, can be more appropriately examined). Oni Dark Link 12:33, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
From the legends that are stated throughout the game it isn't really a surprise if anyone expected a hero to come in a dark hour, is it? As for the Japanese text, Japanese people occasionally use spirit in place of will, so it's pretty possible isn't it? You should remember that Japanese people created Legend of Zelda so it's quite likely that their are Japanese aspects in it. It's like the other games where it doesn't seemingly seem Japanese like yet probably wouldn't (if not couldn't) be made by foreigners as it actually has Japanese ideas in it. Also please don't use such philosophical questions, since the results will probably be... Despite what you say, the timeline split and the Hero's Shade still seems pretty solid in disproving the reincarnation theory. Philosophical things are a thing in Legend of Zelda (such as the Triforce, Goddesses and other aspects) but we probably shouldn't use them in these discussions other than confirmed stuff(although it seems to actually have Japanese stuff in it, such as reincarnation and how there is a spirit inside objects such as the Master Sword). It should be noted though, that since Demise himself stated that his "hatred" will be reincarnated rather than soul, that somewhat supports the will thing. Interesting to note though, the Japanese text stated that Link merely sealed Demise's hatred and evil rather than it slowly decaying over time, which really opens up a question on the whole curse stuff. Anyways though, as I've stated before this is still a theory so until new content with information regarding this is revealed, I'm not exactly sure what else to write. Why don't we put a hold to this until some other information comes out?--Zakitaro (talk) 13:20, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Spirit can mean will or heart in English too. That's nothing unique to Japanese. Except in this case the Japanses version serves more to discredit you than help you since it uses the word 魂 or tamashii which translate more closely to soul than spirit (which is Seishin or this 精神 according to google translate). Searching for 魂 led me to this wikipedia article which is primarily based on a Chinese philosophy but uses the same symbol with the same meaning so is probably related. And here's the kicker, the philosophy is entirely about having multiple souls with the Hun part (the part that uses our Japanse tamashii kanji) being about the etheral soul that preserves beyond death, it's counter part being the po soul which would be closer to will and remains with the person after death. I'm no expert on eastern philosophy or language but this seems pretty solid and implies exactly what I've been talking about all this time. Unless you can provide some other source detailing he meaning/translation of the word Demise uses (which again is 魂) then I think we need to take this as literal fact and that the thing Demise is cursing is a soul that remains after death. Oni Dark Link 14:45, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

That seems to confirm that the Demise quote, at least, more strongly supports Link's reincarnation that not. The hun and po soul dualism also provides a perfect explanation for how the Hero's Shade converses with TP Link. Using this concept of soul dualism, the Hero's Shade and TP Link would each possess a unique po, but may have the same hun (which incidentally applies to Avatar as well if you only consider The Last Airbender, which draws upon Eastern philosophy more than Korra does, anyway). I don't think it's a stretch at all to say Japan would use this concept; a LOT of Japan's cultural mythos can be traced to China in one way or another, and of course the borrowed character makes a strong case for this being such an instance. Also, who's to say how time travel affects the hun? On the one hand, no hero arrived to stop Ganondorf before Hyrule was flooded, but on the other, Obviously the Hero of Time's po disappeared from the Adult Timeline, but would the metaphysical hun be bound to a particular timeline? From what the games tells us, this is still an open question and doesn't necessarily have to work one way or the other -- King of Red Lions and Ganondorf seem to have different ideas about this. It would be really helpful to know what King of Red Lions meant by no "connection" to the ancient one....
Another thing of note it that when Demise speaks of the incarnations (yes, it's plural, which implies either multiple Ganondorfs or villains other than said) of his hatred, he uses 権化. I noticed that Japanese has multiple words for incarnation when investigation this, and the one used here (権化) seems closely related to the concept of a divine avatar, as opposed to 化身, which seems to refer to personification of nonphysical concepts more generally. Demise does not use either of these words when he curses Link and Zelda, so I do not believe a parallel can be drawn between the incarnations of Demise's hatred and those who possess the soul of the hero.
So now, aside from other quotes that are more ambiguous and could be used to support both theories, the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule seems to be the only remaining evidence for the relatives theory. Even then, assuming this fact hasn't been retconned, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to the reincarnation theory. Jedimasterlink (talk) 19:36, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
Actually though, tamashii can also mean will in Japanese when used by Japanese people. Despite what you say, the whole will thing is still a possibility. Please don't forget this is still a theory and not confirmed information. I'm still not sure why you added something not of Japanese culture into this though since it's somewhat likely they didn't really add that in the game. If anything, since Skyward Sword itself had reincarnation about "Hylia" in it, I kinda have doubts about this stuff.
Anyways though people, please stop adding stuff that doesn't have to do with Legend of Zelda since the creators probably don't even know about them (not about the other culture stuff which I suppose they might know). If you keep adding stuff that's not related to Legend of Zelda, this would be something else, wouldn't it? As for Demise's curse, it's still a curse so it's still possible to draw a parallel between Demise's hatred and the "spirit of the hero" isn't it? This being supported by how I previously wrote about how the Japanese text stated that Link merely sealed Demise's hatred and evil without it being mentioned that it will decay which kinda opens up the question how his hatred was reincarnated when it was sealed away inside the Master Sword. And what do you exactly mean the relatives theory is only supported by the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule stuff? Since the Hero of Time himself is still the ancestor of Link from Twilight Princess along with how Link fights some other adversaries without any members of the Royal family to help him, it still seems to be a pretty solid theory. If anything, despite these ideas, the reincarnation theory still goes against multiple stuff that happened in the game while the relatives theory doesn't seem to have much (if any) parallels to events that happened in the game.--Zakitaro (talk) 00:44, April 18, 2015 (UTC)
The non-Zelda stuff is just meant for comparison to things we may have prior knowledge of, rather than the basis of a point. I just added what I did because Oni wanted me to keep an eye on things in a referee-type role (since we still need a third party to reach a consensus, and I'm neutral about the outcome of this). I'm not really going to respond to points in full unless I have some new information to add. Jedimasterlink (talk) 14:34, April 18, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah um, so until new information comes out concerning Link's incarnations, I'd say this kinda gathers things up. I keep writing down how this should probably be put on temporarily hold until new information comes out since it's unlikely that much will change on this theory thing on Link's page even if we were to continue this talk as it is right now. If you have something else to write about this "spirit of the Hero" thing, I suggest making another talk page about it.--Zakitaro (talk) 14:46, April 18, 2015 (UTC)
Hate to jump into a dead conversation, but I always took the whole 'reincarnation' thing to be less the reincarnation of Link and more of the Triforce. There have been many Links, Zeldas and Ganons, who are all linked through their Triforce pieces. The Triforce passes between them as time goes on. For example, the Hero of Twilight (though I personally think he is a blood relative of the Hero of Time) is simply chosen by the Goddesses to be their next hero, and the Triforce is given to/manifests itself/chooses him. 'Link' as a singular person or hero is not reincarnated, simply, a new young man is chosen by the Goddesses and/or the Triforce every time the need rises for one. The Hero of Winds is a perfect example of this, as he was not chosen by the Goddesses and he has no relation to the Hero of Time - rather, he gathers the Triforce of Courage himself and it accepts him as the new Hero. If he was a reincarnation, the Triforce would be innate. The Hero's Shade doesn't really need to factor into it - He is the Hero of Time. He is what remains of that Hero. His exact state of being is unclear, but I believe, in a precedent set by Mikau and Darmani, he lingers on as he regrets he never passed on his hidden skills. Remember, in that timeline, the Hero of Time's heroic deeds did not really happen, and he is not truly remembered as the hero he really was, only that he warned the Royal Family of Ganondorf's betrayal. He also evidently never found Navi. That is a spirit that is full of regrets and is not at peace, and as said that is a phenomenon that firmly exists in the Zelda universe. Perhaps because of his links to the Triforce, he is able to breach the corporeal world and communicate with the Hero of Twilight in order to pass on those skills. In fact, the Hero's Shade is ever more proof that Link is NOT a reincarnation. If the Hero of Twilight was, then how does the Hero's Shade still remain, aware of who he is? -Stars talk Starssprite.gif 22:17, April 19, 2015 (UTC)
As well written as your message is, I thought I should point out a few things. First of all, where was it exactly confirmed that Link never found his friend at his adventure? I also don't see what that has to do with the Hero of Time and his regrets. The Hyrule Historia states that his regrets are not passing down his "skills" to the next generation (even though we don't even see him use any of it in Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask) and not being remembered as a hero (what a glory hound, am I right?). He seems to merely be a ghost with less important regrets than Mikau and Darmani that decided to help his descendant out to save Hyrule and passed his moves on by himself. Secondly, the King of Red Lions stated that Link "appears to have no connection to the ancient one" which isn't quite really confirmed in the game. If anything, since the King of Red Lions didn't seem to exactly be "smart" with an example of his seemingly foolish actions being he used the Triforce to flood Hyrule instead of using it against Ganon (which I previously wrote), he may have been wrong. I would also like to point out (without trying to offend anyone) that I already wrote about how the Hero's Shade is arguable proof why the Links aren't reincarnations of one another which we already discussed about above. If you feel there is another plausible theory for Link's incarnations or have something else to write the already written theories, then you should probably write it down on Link's page.--Zakitaro (talk) 05:38, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Ocarina of Time/Wind Waker Age

In the Ocarina of Time section, the writer says that Link finds himself seventeen years old after obtaining the Master Sword, but in the Wind Waker section, the writer says that Ocarina of Time Link was sixteen years old when he defeated Ganondorf.

I don't have permission to edit this page, so I just thought I would point this out. In the Wind Waker section, sixteen should be changed to seventeen and nine should be changed to ten.

--ZTW Gaming (talk) 18:02, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

The page isn't blocked and you aren't either so you should be able to add that in the Wind Waker section. Sonamyfan666 a Amy Rose Expert and fan (talk) 18:06, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, this page is semi-protected so only accounts four or more days old can edit it. On the subject of Link's age, while I remember him being seventeen, I don't actually remember anywhere that his age was stated other than Hyrule Historia which we don't consider canon. Unless we find a canon source, we may have to remove info regarding his age in OoT entirely. HH Tektite (The Legend of Zelda) 20:10, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I see that someone made the change, but may I ask, why is Hyrule Historia non-canon? I don't have a problem with it. I just thought that it was an official book written (or at least supervised) by Nintendo, and any sources coming from them would be more trustworthy than anything. --ZTW Gaming (talk) 23:57, June 1, 2015 (UTC)

Link is my favorite video game character at all time. He's awesome and heroic.

Timeline stuff

So I know more than a few people think that the Hero of Time went back to seven years in the past by Zelda, but it's actually been revealed that he went into an alternate universe that caused the Timeline split. Since Link's actions in Majora's Mask leads to a different future than the one in The Wind Waker, I think that's proof enough. It's also been shown that time travel in Zelda does connect to the past, present and future with clear evidence shown in Skyward Sword and Majora's Mask.--Zakitaro (talk) 00:21, December 12, 2015 (UTC)

Zelda sends Link back in time to where he first meets her. Though exactly what occurs between this and Majora's Mask is unclear, but it is obvious that due to Link's knowledge of Ganondorf's intent, Ganondorf is locked away by the Sages, as seen in Twilight Princess. This leads to Link going to find Navi in Majora's Mask, and then Ganondorf's botched execution leads to Twilight Princess. Because there is no longer a hero in the Hyrule that Link saved and Zelda sent him back from, when Ganondorf returns there is no one to stop him (EVIDENCE: Wind Waker Intro "but the Hero did not appear") and Goddesses flood Hyrule. This leads to Wind Waker. Hyrule Historia throws a spanner in the works with the Defeat timeline, and that could reasonably be argued to be an alternate universe where Link fails - but the Adult/Child timelines are divergences of the exact same universe.

It's not an alternate universe as such, it is a complete divergence in time's flow. This is why nobody remembers the Hero's Shade as a Hero in Twilight Princess - because the seven years that Hyrule was taken over by Ganondorf and that Link eventually saved never occured in that timeline, because Link was sent back - only HE remembers what happened. It leads to a different future, because he is there, and not in the Hyrule he saved. At that point, when Zelda sent him back, time split. We have confirmation in the form of the games and Hyrule Historia that there are multiple timelines. Do you have evidence there are multiple universes?

Please remember Link travels back and forth within Ocarina of Time, not just at the end. Are you telling me he is going to an alternate universe every time he replaces the Master Sword? Because:

"If you want to return to your original time, return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time.By doing this, you will travel back in time seven years...."
— Rauru
"As long as you hold the Ocarina of Time and the Master Sword, you hold time itself in your hands..."
— Sheik, I think

And FINALLY,

"Link, give the Ocarina to me...As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it. When peace returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say good-bye... Now, go home, Link. Regain your lost time! Home... where you are supposed to be... the way you are supposed to be..."
— Zelda

All of these quotes from OoT SPECIFICALLY mention Time and Link's passage backwards and forwards with it. Zelda says she will send him BACK IN TIME. To his ORIGINAL time, no less. -Stars talk Starssprite.gif 19:51, December 12, 2015 (UTC)

You can't apply a standardize logic to time travel in the Zelda series. Oracle of Ages manages to contradict itself three times in how time travel and that's using the same method of time travel. Oni Dark Link 00:05, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is that when Zelda played the Ocarina of Time, she actually sent Link to a different timeline (an alternate universe) which led to the timeline split due to Link's actions differing (as you have noted above) although it probably still would have been a different universe even if Link did the same actions.

This is in contrast to the other forms of time travel (gates and stuff in Skyward Sword, Song of Time in Majora's Mask which is likely due to the Goddess of Time lending a hand as hinted, and the Oracle Series) which all do lead to the future and don't create a different timeline even when someone does something different in the past.

I am aware of the other forms of time travel in Ocarina of Time, but they involve using the Master Sword (alongside the ocarina) and each action (even if done differently) does lead to the future, so they actually are a form of time travel and not a way of sending someone to a parallel world.

I also get that there are inconsistencies for this time travel stuff, but I think the parts that are made clear (Child Timeline and Adult Timeline) should be noted. Link was sent to the Child Timeline, which is a parallel world of the timeline he originally resided in.

And while I'm at it, I will also note about the Hero's Shade (since he technically is also one of Link's incarnation) thing. It is not confirmed that the Triforce of Courage grants its wielder enhanced strength along with the fact that the Hero's Shade couldn't have wielded it since his descendant was hinted to have had it. Exactly why are you so against the fact that a teenager Link (that doesn't wield a piece of the Triforce) has more strength than his pre-teen counterparts? It's completely natural for a teenager to be much stronger than someone younger than them.

The reason why the Hero's Shade chose to train Link wasn't just because he wanted to ease his regrets but also to save Hyrule (with evidence being their first conversation). The requirements to learning the Hidden Skills (noted by the Hero's Shade) is that that they can only be passed down to someone carrying the Hero of Time's bloodline, not being chosen as a hero.--Zakitaro (talk) 03:53, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

Where is your evidence she sent him to an alternative universe? Where is your proof? I have quotes from the game, the highest canon stating otherwise.

I am not continuing to argue this point until you present me with cold hard fact that this is the case and not just conjecture on your part. -Stars talk Starssprite.gif 12:40, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean aside from the Hyrule Historia itself? If so then the isn't much evidence to back it up at this point, but I'm pretty sure that itself is proof enough.--Zakitaro (talk) 13:14, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Not all of us have the luxury of owning Hyrule Historia, so give me QUOTES. or SCANS. or even a photo. I want you to provide evidence that this is fact. And I don't want wishy washy conjecture, I want it in black and white that Zelda DEFINITELY sent Link to an alternate universe, and not that this is assumed, because the games clearly state otherwise.

You need to stop saying 'well Hyrule Historia says so' and start giving us solid proof, because I am getting tired of edit warring with conjecture. -Stars talk Starssprite.gif 14:54, December 16, 2015 (UTC)

Well then why didn't you say so? It seemed like you actually did own a copy based on your other responses. Just to note, you probably could have just researched it yourself on the internet though using images. Anyways though, here is the quote: The section of the timeline where Link triumphs is divided into two separate realities.

I'm also going to note that I actually have made a talk page to do something about it, whereas you have not, along with the fact that you instead verbally attacked me twice.--Zakitaro (talk) 07:41, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

The dispute about the Hero's Shade belongs on his talk page, not here. You're the one causing the controversial edits, you're the one who can defend them.

I would disagree strongly that 'seperate realities' and 'different universes' are synonymous. That sentence would suggest to me that the book is simply explaining there is a division in the timeline, and not that Zelda sent Link to another universe of the sort. 'Two seperate realities' to me would say 'two different timelines' not 'two different universes'. As I thought, the leap to 'a different universe' is conjecture on your part, and the outright statement from the games that Zelda sent Link back in time overrules this absolutely. And before you spout - I am not saying Hyrule Historia is not canon. I am saying the games overrule it.-Stars talk Starssprite.gif 21:54, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you were talking about when you mentioned the Hero's Shade. If I were to explain why I included him on this talk page, it's that it felt easier and faster just putting him here since he is also technically Link as well. The discussion itself should already be over by now. You accuse me of making controversial edits, but aren't you the one who is acting angry towards me over these discussions?

Anyways though, separate realities are separate realities, it's just what it means. In Ocarina of Time, Link wasn't sent back in time, but rather sent to a different reality (which is called the Child Timeline). Time travel stuff is at least confirmed to be both connected to the past and present in this franchise, so I don't exactly see how my notes about it are conjecture. Since the Fallen Hero Timeline, Child Timeline and Adult Timeline are all considered to be different realities to one another, that just means what it means. I don't see how the games overrule a confirmed sentence in the Hyrule Historia considering that the evidence you have given out so far are just quotes from a character which have not been physically proven in the story.--Zakitaro (talk) 08:18, December 18, 2015 (UTC)

This conversation looks like it needs a third voice to weigh in on. And my opinion is that it's a pretty pointless discussion on both counts. Zakitaro was right, the line that brought the discussion to light was needless. The sentence flows just as good without it if not better and unless we have good reason to, we shouldn't even be mentioning timeline stuff in game sections. As for the actual discrepancy, it's also completely irrelevant. We don't need to delve into the metaphysics of where Link went. If we have cause to mention Ocarina of Time's ending then all we have to say, is exactly what the game tells us, that Link returned to his own time. Whether he got there by time travel, dimension hopping or a version of the Truman Show doesn't matter. Saying he went back to his time is an accurate description of what happened and is sourced from the game itself. I don't think there's anything else that can or should be said on this matter. Oni Dark Link 10:19, December 18, 2015 (UTC)

im not sure if this is in my head but is link deaf because he never speaks (exept for cdi) but people could be using sign language in the games but it is displayed as words

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